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sunnyskywalkerHaven't written about HP lately, so here we go. And it's not a gripe, either! I know, shocking after DH, but there you are. It wasn't all bad.
It's funny. I have plenty of things to complain about in DH (hello, disappearing Justice for Magical Races subplot!), but Remus Lupin's behavior isn't one of them. In fact, this was one of the things I found entirely believable and consistent with the entire backstory going back to the Marauders era. Since I find I'm in the minority in this opinion, I thought I'd do a write-up of my reaction, for my own increased understanding if nothing else.
First, while trying to run off and leave his pregnant wife during a war isn't a nice thing to do, it's something I can believe he would do. He always pulls away when he fears he's endangering people: for instance, he resigns without protest in PoA and understood why parents would think he was too dangerous for students to be around. He tends to keep people at a distance. I read Lupin as being depressed and having a low sense of self-worth, exacerbated by his unemployment and the social stigma of being a werewolf; keeping people at arm's length and bailing when things get rough are consistent with this as well as with his past behavior.
Second--and I hate to say this because I do like him--he has a point. He and Tonks didn't jump over the Weasleys' hedge when Scrimgeour came just for kicks; they did it because they're in that much danger. The Ministry is rounding up people right and left, and living with a werewolf would probably make Tonks and the baby bigger targets than if they pretended she left him and moved in with her pureblood mother. It might at least give her a little more time to plan her escape if they came after the "half-breed" baby. Furthermore, suppose some full moon he forgets to take his medicine, breaks out of wherever he is, and hurts Tonks and the baby? Of course there are plenty of good parents out there with chronic medical conditions and a black mark in the authorities' books, but given that Lupin knows his fears are legitimate, I can see why he'd regret putting someone he cared about in danger. It's not nice to try to take the decision out of Tonks's hands. But he thinks he's older and wiser than optimistic Tonks, and moreover has a lower opinion of himself than Tonks does of him, so it does make sense to me that he'd do that. For her own good, he thinks.
Third, I think Lupin's functional depression spiraled down into despair and self-loathing during HBP while he was living with Fenrir Greyback's pack. In OotP, he needles Tonks about her name and reminisces about his schooldays with Sirius, which is downright cheerful for him. In HBP, he stares moodily into the fire and talks bitterly about his "peers... fellows... equals." He says his "reasoned argument" isn't making headway at all, which has got to be disappointing, especially over a period of months (or over a year, for all we know - where were his mysterious errands taking him in OotP?). And he would realize that werewolves siding with Fenrir meant innocent people getting mauled or turned, so he's probably feeling responsible for that. And we don't know what he does during full moon exactly - maybe he has to run with them to keep up appearances, and maybe there were some close calls like those during his schooldays which he feels more keenly than he did when he was younger and more carefree. He wouldn't have his friends to calm him, though, but a ravening pack led by a guy who likes to bite children, so maybe things went beyond close calls. Even if none of that happened, he's living with the guy who made him a werewolf. That can't be fun. That comment about his "equals" sounds to me like Lupin feels worse than ever about his condition - either hating himself for having a beast within, or hating that he's stuck being a pariah forever because of that, or both.
So when he tells Tonks he's "too old, too poor, too dangerous" for her, I believe he really feels that way. He could also just not be that into her, be gay, or whatever, but I think it flies with a bi or straight Lupin who cares about Tonks and doesn't want to burden her with his outcast status and his depressed, unworthy self. Marrying her wouldn't be an instant cure for this. It might give him a temporary boost (see: cheery public hand-holding), but seeing the danger Tonks really is in by being with him would send Lupin right back down, to the point where he might think it's for the best if he leaves. It's not necessarily logical, and it doesn't take into account Tonks's free will, but it's believable. Especially when he wants to leave to help destroy the evil overlord who's making life so much worse for him and his family. I mean, that's not so hard to rationalize as the best way to protect his family, is it?
Finally... it makes so much sense when you take into account the Marauders era. And I don't just mean that knowing what trouble he almost got himself and his friends into back then makes him more sensitive to such issues now, or that losing his old friends one by one makes him less willing to get close to anyone (though I'm sure that's true too). I mean that while I was reading DH, I thought Lupin was awfully on edge, and wondered if Lupin had entirely different reasons for his behavior, since JKR has been known to give perfectly believable behavior unexpected motivation ("no, I'm not stuttering because I'm nervous--it's because I'M HARBORING VOLDEMORT MWAHAHA!"). To be specific, I wondered if Lupin's year with the werewolves had convinced him that wizards would never accept him, and that his best bet to have a decent life (and to protect his family) was to overthrow the wizarding government. Maybe he thought he could help dispose of Voldemort, but still use the situation to his advantage--or even use Voldemort to bring down the Ministry and then help get rid of him. Maybe history was repeating itself, and we had a spy for the other side (or the third, werewolf side) in our midst!
And then it smacked me over the head. I remembered PoA: "Unless you thought I was the spy?" "Forgive me, old friend."
Unless you thought I was the spy. Why did Sirius and the Potters suspect Lupin in the first place, anyway? We never did find out. Pettigrew must have contributed, but they wouldn't believe it unless it seemed plausible. They knew it was someone in the Order, but why Lupin? Well. This would have been another period of high prejudice against werewolves, right? Lupin's condition wasn't public at the time, but surely it was in constant danger of being revealed. Suppose he thought it best to keep a little distant from his friends, for their own good? And suppose he kept volunteering for Order missions that kept him as far away from his friends (or anyone else) as possible? And suppose he kept passing up the opportunity to visit Baby Harry, claiming it was too dangerous this close to the full moon when they pressed him for a reason? And what if the Red Hen is right and Lupin was Dumbledore's emissary to the werewolves then, too? I think they'd all find this very suspicious, that's what I think. Maybe Lupin wants to be alone so we don't know what he's up to, and he's trying to distance himself from us so he won't feel as bad when he betrays us. And maybe he's been taken in by the other werewolves' arguments...
So yeah, of all the things in DH, this is one of the ones I'm okay with. (Lupin and Tonks's deaths, on the other hand... are for another day.)
It's funny. I have plenty of things to complain about in DH (hello, disappearing Justice for Magical Races subplot!), but Remus Lupin's behavior isn't one of them. In fact, this was one of the things I found entirely believable and consistent with the entire backstory going back to the Marauders era. Since I find I'm in the minority in this opinion, I thought I'd do a write-up of my reaction, for my own increased understanding if nothing else.
First, while trying to run off and leave his pregnant wife during a war isn't a nice thing to do, it's something I can believe he would do. He always pulls away when he fears he's endangering people: for instance, he resigns without protest in PoA and understood why parents would think he was too dangerous for students to be around. He tends to keep people at a distance. I read Lupin as being depressed and having a low sense of self-worth, exacerbated by his unemployment and the social stigma of being a werewolf; keeping people at arm's length and bailing when things get rough are consistent with this as well as with his past behavior.
Second--and I hate to say this because I do like him--he has a point. He and Tonks didn't jump over the Weasleys' hedge when Scrimgeour came just for kicks; they did it because they're in that much danger. The Ministry is rounding up people right and left, and living with a werewolf would probably make Tonks and the baby bigger targets than if they pretended she left him and moved in with her pureblood mother. It might at least give her a little more time to plan her escape if they came after the "half-breed" baby. Furthermore, suppose some full moon he forgets to take his medicine, breaks out of wherever he is, and hurts Tonks and the baby? Of course there are plenty of good parents out there with chronic medical conditions and a black mark in the authorities' books, but given that Lupin knows his fears are legitimate, I can see why he'd regret putting someone he cared about in danger. It's not nice to try to take the decision out of Tonks's hands. But he thinks he's older and wiser than optimistic Tonks, and moreover has a lower opinion of himself than Tonks does of him, so it does make sense to me that he'd do that. For her own good, he thinks.
Third, I think Lupin's functional depression spiraled down into despair and self-loathing during HBP while he was living with Fenrir Greyback's pack. In OotP, he needles Tonks about her name and reminisces about his schooldays with Sirius, which is downright cheerful for him. In HBP, he stares moodily into the fire and talks bitterly about his "peers... fellows... equals." He says his "reasoned argument" isn't making headway at all, which has got to be disappointing, especially over a period of months (or over a year, for all we know - where were his mysterious errands taking him in OotP?). And he would realize that werewolves siding with Fenrir meant innocent people getting mauled or turned, so he's probably feeling responsible for that. And we don't know what he does during full moon exactly - maybe he has to run with them to keep up appearances, and maybe there were some close calls like those during his schooldays which he feels more keenly than he did when he was younger and more carefree. He wouldn't have his friends to calm him, though, but a ravening pack led by a guy who likes to bite children, so maybe things went beyond close calls. Even if none of that happened, he's living with the guy who made him a werewolf. That can't be fun. That comment about his "equals" sounds to me like Lupin feels worse than ever about his condition - either hating himself for having a beast within, or hating that he's stuck being a pariah forever because of that, or both.
So when he tells Tonks he's "too old, too poor, too dangerous" for her, I believe he really feels that way. He could also just not be that into her, be gay, or whatever, but I think it flies with a bi or straight Lupin who cares about Tonks and doesn't want to burden her with his outcast status and his depressed, unworthy self. Marrying her wouldn't be an instant cure for this. It might give him a temporary boost (see: cheery public hand-holding), but seeing the danger Tonks really is in by being with him would send Lupin right back down, to the point where he might think it's for the best if he leaves. It's not necessarily logical, and it doesn't take into account Tonks's free will, but it's believable. Especially when he wants to leave to help destroy the evil overlord who's making life so much worse for him and his family. I mean, that's not so hard to rationalize as the best way to protect his family, is it?
Finally... it makes so much sense when you take into account the Marauders era. And I don't just mean that knowing what trouble he almost got himself and his friends into back then makes him more sensitive to such issues now, or that losing his old friends one by one makes him less willing to get close to anyone (though I'm sure that's true too). I mean that while I was reading DH, I thought Lupin was awfully on edge, and wondered if Lupin had entirely different reasons for his behavior, since JKR has been known to give perfectly believable behavior unexpected motivation ("no, I'm not stuttering because I'm nervous--it's because I'M HARBORING VOLDEMORT MWAHAHA!"). To be specific, I wondered if Lupin's year with the werewolves had convinced him that wizards would never accept him, and that his best bet to have a decent life (and to protect his family) was to overthrow the wizarding government. Maybe he thought he could help dispose of Voldemort, but still use the situation to his advantage--or even use Voldemort to bring down the Ministry and then help get rid of him. Maybe history was repeating itself, and we had a spy for the other side (or the third, werewolf side) in our midst!
And then it smacked me over the head. I remembered PoA: "Unless you thought I was the spy?" "Forgive me, old friend."
Unless you thought I was the spy. Why did Sirius and the Potters suspect Lupin in the first place, anyway? We never did find out. Pettigrew must have contributed, but they wouldn't believe it unless it seemed plausible. They knew it was someone in the Order, but why Lupin? Well. This would have been another period of high prejudice against werewolves, right? Lupin's condition wasn't public at the time, but surely it was in constant danger of being revealed. Suppose he thought it best to keep a little distant from his friends, for their own good? And suppose he kept volunteering for Order missions that kept him as far away from his friends (or anyone else) as possible? And suppose he kept passing up the opportunity to visit Baby Harry, claiming it was too dangerous this close to the full moon when they pressed him for a reason? And what if the Red Hen is right and Lupin was Dumbledore's emissary to the werewolves then, too? I think they'd all find this very suspicious, that's what I think. Maybe Lupin wants to be alone so we don't know what he's up to, and he's trying to distance himself from us so he won't feel as bad when he betrays us. And maybe he's been taken in by the other werewolves' arguments...
So yeah, of all the things in DH, this is one of the ones I'm okay with. (Lupin and Tonks's deaths, on the other hand... are for another day.)
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-28 10:30 pm (UTC)Yeah, I haven't quite forgiven JKR for their deaths either.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-31 05:36 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-12-07 09:03 am (UTC)And yeah, their deaths pissed me right the fuck off. Tehy were just so pointless and random and made almost next to no impact on the characters or their lives. I also got upset with the quick brush-off after Sirius's death. Harry mounred CEDRIC more than Sirius. UGH. I loved Sirius, too, and his death really hurt. So did Lupin's, even though I was gnashing my teeth through the book. Snape's was also awful. JKR managed to kill pretty much all my favorite HP characters. So upsetting. Character death is not really something I care for. I think it's a cheap way to evoke an emotional reaction, particularly if it doesn't affect the storyline much.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-12-08 07:54 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-12-28 08:49 pm (UTC)NOTE: I have no idea if you still care about HP... I don't really, but I felt like rambling so there you go. :p Personally, I like Lupin. He's such an indolent, wimpy, selfish, evasive, ruthless scumbag he's almost interesting. :)
He always pulls away when he fears he's endangering people:
Actually, no. The werewolf you describe here, one even slightly concerned about the safety of Hogwart's students and staff, wouldn't have taken up the job in the first place. OR he would have made damn sure that come full moon, he was locked up miles away from any living human being, any (still largely experimental) potions or not. With all the magical methods of transportation, taking this vital precaution would be a snap – not doing so only shows how extremely little Lupin cares.
he resigns without protest in PoA and understood why parents would think he was too dangerous for students to be around
He only “resigned” AFTER seriously endangering the lives of many people, most of them children. Due solely to his own negligence and nothing else, I should stress. In my opinion, he only “resigned” at the last moment so as to:
a) avoid MUCH harsher consequences for both him and Dumbledore – it's more than likely that parents, school board and indeed Ministry authorities would not be content with merely sacking him
b) be able to leave Hogwarts with head held high – he would have been forced to leave on any account, but this way, the inevitable looked rather like his own choice and selfless sacrifice than discharge without honors and well deserved punishment
c) make himself look good in the eyes of his fanclub and if nothing else, get some pity out of the unpleasant situation (worked on Harry & co., and on others as well :) )
He tends to keep people at a distance.
Which would be why we see him tagging along the Marauders all the time, cheerfully interacting with Hogwarts's students and the Order, living under one roof with Sirius, visiting the Weasleys... right?
What you mean is he keeps pushing Tonks away, but that's an exception, not consistent behavior. Not wanting to sleep socialize with one particular person doesn't make you a voluntary hermit.
I read Lupin as being depressed and having a low sense of self-worth
But what signs of depression or low self esteem does he show? He likes himself well enough to put his interests (comfort) in front of everybody else's, while continually doing what he can to present himself in the best (most convenient) light possible. On the other hand Snape, who undoubtedly IS an individual with self-worth issues and who might well be depressed, behaves in a completely opposite fashion.
Second-- ….
Once again, you're forgetting that this isn't Lupin, trying to make the best out of a shit situation life mercilessly dealt him. This is Lupin, weaseling out of a shit situation he personally got himself and others into.
If Lupin really were the older, wiser realist, that caring chap who longs to shield his best beloved (or any innocent person, really) from the danger he sees everywhere, maybe he would have taken some precautions in the bedroom, don't you think? It would have eliminated every single problem you described above and more. If you sincerely care about someone and believe that she's putting herself in danger by merely associating with you, you probably won't go and knock her up (in the middle of a war, no less). Teddy is the living proof that where Tonks and her safety were concerned, Lupin honestly couldn't care less. Which is extremely consistent with his past behavior from Marauders times to Harry's 3rd year.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-12-28 08:49 pm (UTC)Third-- ….
In OotP, he's taken care of, including a roof over his head, without having to lift a finger. Of course he's content with his life.
In HBP, he's lost all of that (plus a supposed old friend) and is freaking annoyed that he has to live with a bunch of unmedicated psychos in the middle of some forest where a sleeping bag and toilet paper are luxury. That's not a sign of clinical depression, that's a normal human reaction to given stimuli.
And he would realize that werewolves siding with Fenrir meant innocent people getting mauled or turned, so he's probably feeling responsible for that.
Hell no! (pardon my French) If he cared one iota about other werewolves on the loose, he would have done something ages ago, instead of waiting for Dumbledore to literally force him to freaking try *talking* to them. (how much effort does that require, exactly?) He's not feeling guilty about the time in 3rd year when he nearly ate Harry, what makes you think he'd feel responsible for some unfamiliar werewolves who maybe are (but maybe are not) endangering some unfamiliar people?
So when he tells Tonks he's "too old, too poor, too dangerous" for her...
...he's trying to tell her to feck off without having to actually tell her to feck off (= be nasty). Lupin's standard modus operandi. I don't know WHY he didn't want her, he just obviously DID NOT. Everybody else would get the message and leave him alone, unfortunately Tonks was so obsessed and persistent that in the end, she left him no other option but to cave in or openly conflict her (and, who knows, maybe a good part of the Order with her). Lupin, very much in-character, caved in. Only to flee from responsibility without remorse later.
Unless you thought I was the spy. Why did Sirius and the Potters suspect Lupin in the first place, anyway?
I don't think they really suspected him, at least not any more than they suspected everybody else. He just wasn't Sirius or James, that's all. They didn't even trust Dumbledore as much as they trusted each other, and you can't think they believed Dumbledore was the spy. Lupin is “hurt” simply because they didn't believe his betrayal COMPLETELY out of question impossible. Of course if he were a reasonably intelligent person, he would understand them – particularly 13 years later. Actually, I think he understands them all too well. He's just faking hurt to – once again – make himself look better and get some pity out of it. :) (I refuse to take into account Sirius's choosing Pettigrew over Lupin for The Switch. I'm still not entirely sure how it was supposed to work, but on any account The Switch was – even by Sirius's standards - such an unbelievably stupid thing to do that Peter must have imperiused him into it.)
NOTE: Rant over, I think. Sorry if I'm being stupid or something, nostalgia for solving the unsolvable got the better of me – hopefully for the last time. :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2013-01-19 12:37 am (UTC)I wonder whether living with the werewolves full-time gave him a slight pang of conscience? Maybe, briefly, he noticed that they weren't actually acting all that much worse than he ever did. Enough to sound especially bitter about his "peers," his "equals." Just maybe, when it was quiet and he'd had an especially bad day, he got to thinking too much and really understood what a shit he's been. Nothing he couldn't shake off in the light of day, unfortunately. *sigh* These books really can't let anyone grow up.
I think my official position now on how Lupin really deep-down felt about Tonks is that JKR never gave us enough information to make a reasonable guess. All we know is that he teased her about her name and they seemed friendly, and then that he didn't want to date (start? continue? we don't even really know that much!). It could definitely be that he wasn't interested but got strong-armed into it. It could also be that he liked her just fine - casually. But a serious relationship? That's too much like work, and would involve responsibility. We know how much he hates responsibility. (Being the "cool adult," sure. Actually caring for the kids? Eh...) If they were serious, it wouldn't be just the occasional fun weekend; Tonks would expect things of him. And while a distant headmaster (or spymaster) vaguely expecting you to behave well or talk to some people and report back once a month is one thing, a right-in-your-face girlfriend expecting things of you every day - and being there with you every day watching you (not suspiciously, just... very present) is much, much more of a burden, for someone who hates responsibility. Not only would there be less opportunity for him to skate on his responsibilities, it would involve serious work if he actually wanted to lie to her.
Now, he did get tightly involved with his three bestest friends in school. But he was much younger then, and they did kind of have him at a disadvantage and pressure him into it too. Maybe he's less eager to jump into any close relationships these days, given the choice. Not that he didn't enjoy his time with his friends - he absolutely did - but now he has a better idea just how much work it is. And his friends had the advantage of giving him an "excuse" (emotionally, if not by any rational standard) to indulge his impulses and run wild (it wasn't just his decision, no, it was them!), while we don't know that Tonks would have been quite so indulgent. So, less fun, more work - even if he was strongly romantically interested in her, his inclinations would be pulling him strongly away from that kind of commitment.
And then it never really mattered anyway, much like Grawp and all the other orphaned subplots. So all I feel remotely confident in saying about that pairing now is that Lupin doesn't like commitment, and who the hell knows how he really feels about Tonks otherwise, except that he seems to enjoy teasing her occasionally.
Rant away! There's plenty of material for it :D
(no subject)
Date: 2013-01-19 12:11 am (UTC)These days, I'd say that he backs down and pulls away when not doing so might be difficult. Could he have brazened out the incident in PoA, counting on Dumbledore to hush it up/lie through his teeth about what really happened? ("Did someone say werewolf? Ah, you must have misunderstood Severus. Professor Lupin was in fact protecting the children from a werewolf hiding in the Forbidden Forest who was in league with Sirius Black, you see... That's why he was always missing around full moon: he spent the days hunting for the evil duo!") Maybe, maybe not. Someone more like Sirius probably would have tried, in part because he honestly wouldn't have understood what the big deal was and would not care about a few people yapping about it, and in part because he always got away with stuff before.
So Lupin, noting that being in a relationship with Tonks means that he himself will now be getting more negative attention from the Ministry and such (being a werewolf is one thing, but a werewolf dating a Ministry employee? they'll be watching...), might back down regardless of whether and how much he likes Tonks. Very little is worth sticking his neck out for, and she hasn't been around long enough or done anything in particular to earn his undying loyalty. Could she have, if they'd lived another ten or thirty years? Who knows? But he didn't want to make the effort to find out until refusing meant facing too much negative attention from his friends, at which time dating her became the path of least resistance.
Also, I think the fact that Lupin shows some awareness that romping about and nearly eating people for kicks was wrong - which Sirius never acknowledges - suggests that he might genuinely feel bad about that. A little. At the particular moment he's thinking about it. If Sirius is like a toddler or a dog, with very little awareness that other people have feelings and that that matters, Lupin's more like a tween: he recognizes this, and has developed enough empathy to feel bad about it, but doesn't quite have it together enough to make that feeling "stick" or to resist momentary impulses or act with a whole lot of forethought. It sounds like fun at this moment? Let's go! Oh no, something bad almost happened, how awf- oh look, a squirrel! Maybe that's why Lupin comes across as so much more mature and caring at first glance: he's a little bit better than many other main characters (sadly) and looks good by comparison, from that distorted frame of reference.
Or, if you do want to go the "depression" route, some kinds of self-sabotaging behavior are consistent with that. Like knowing that not getting out of bed and eating brownies all day and forgetting to pay your bills will make you feel worse in the long run, but doing it anyway, which just goes to show how worthless you are, now don't you feel terrible, some brownies and not bothering with stressful paperwork sounds like just the kind of evening you need for a pick-me-up... I'm oversimplifying, and that's a much more trivial example, but that kind of vicious cycle could work for Lupin. Especially in combination with being a bit impulsive and a bit callous. And especially since it's often variable, with better days (or hours) and bad ones. It doesn't look exactly like Snape's version - but then, it doesn't manifest exactly the same in different people.
I don't know, he still strikes me as potentially having mild functional depression, based on some people I've known, but I also don't think that's necessarily the dominant factor in his personality.